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Post by fabfranco on Mar 18, 2006 16:08:29 GMT -5
Guys,
I don't even know how to begin. I'm used to play Marvel Saga, but when I bought the two editions of M&M, I got lost under those tons of rules. It's too darn difficult to create a character! It's so number-crunching that in the middle of the process, I'm totally lost! All those saves and extra numbers! And that thing called Power Level, which got totally messed up on the Second Edition! Call me dumb, but M&M, although explendidly beautiful graphically speaking, doesn't have the elegance of the simplicity of Marvel Saga.
Well, that said, I'd love to have someone to explain, slowly (please!), how to build a character, with clear examples, in M&M. Then, after that, set a sort of Lesson 101 on the basics of the system, on how to play a M&M game. I know, I know, maybe I'm asking too much, but as the Forum's open to that kind of request, why not post it?
Thanks anyone who tackles this and helps a fellow gamer!
FabrÃcio
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Post by Tommy Brownell on Mar 19, 2006 12:32:17 GMT -5
I'll try to help...but then, I've never actually played Mutants & Masterminds, just "base" d20, so I don't know what kind of help I can be.
On one hand, I agree about the complexity...on the other, there's just so much it does right that Saga does wrong...
Which is why I think the solution is to overhaul Saga...=)
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Post by fabfranco on Mar 20, 2006 20:23:16 GMT -5
Overhaul, Tommy? In which sense?
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Post by Trakx on Mar 21, 2006 15:22:29 GMT -5
He means to make changes to the rules for MSHAG to the point that it would qualify as a "2nd Edition". I think there's a spot on the board which talks about this.
As for breaking down how M&M works, I think it would be best if you asked more specific questions. As for how to build a character, I believe there is a chapter in the main book on how to do that - if you have any questions, while I have never played M&M myself (just read through the books), I'm sure that I can answer them for you. Myself and Tommy are well enough versed in D20, the system used the build the game, that at the least we know enough to help guide you (or anyone else).
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Post by Tommy Brownell on Mar 21, 2006 17:52:13 GMT -5
There's a couple of examples in the 2nd Edition book at least...wasn't meaning to leave you hanging on this, just been sidetracked with other stuff at the moment.
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Post by Trakx on Mar 22, 2006 10:32:01 GMT -5
I haven't seen the 2nd Edition book. Is it a lot nicer? Do you know what has improved?
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Post by silverlion on Mar 22, 2006 14:38:54 GMT -5
2E: Not as pretty. Lots more rules. More rigid. Hero points now awarded in play not all at the beginning (for doing heroic things), Tactical movement ditched (no more speedsters having to slow down to 80' a round to make attacks).
Is it better? My opinion? No. I won't run it. It leaped the hurdle of complexity for me pushing the game past the level of complexity I will willing run. 1E was near the edge of complexity level for me to begin with mind you, when I already have simpler games that can do just a MUCH better job at simulating superheroes from comic books (for me.)
The general consensus of others is 2E is better. Lots of people who didn't like 1E suddenly hopped on board with 2E--many of them Hero fans. (Many of the changes seemed to have been made to cater to such fans who need the rules to define things for them.)
I think Nathan if you liked 1E you may like 2E since it seems to be more defined (the way you seem to like things) but for me, its a headache.
Example: Regeneration power
You recover from damage more easily. For each rank of Regeneration choose one of the following benefits.
Recovery Bonus: you gain a +1 bonus on your Con checks to recover from damage. If you have no Con score, one rank allows you to make recovery checks at -4, with each add. rank improving your bonus. Etc.
Recovery Rate (second choice selection) You make checks to recover from a particular damage condition faster. Each rank moves the rest time required to make a recovery check for that condition one step down on the Time and Value Progression table. So for example characters normally get one check per hour of rest to recover from being injured. On regeneration rank reuces that time to 20 minutes, two to 5 minutes etc.
That's just the first tiny bit of it.
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Post by silverlion on Mar 22, 2006 14:44:36 GMT -5
Guys, I don't even know how to begin. I'm used to play Marvel Saga, but when I bought the two editions of M&M, I got lost under those tons of rules. FabrÃcio 1) Decide on concept and determine Power Level (to get points and limits) 2) Buy Attributes, Base Attack and Defense within limits. 3) Buy Skills within Limits 4) Buy feats 5) Buy powers- Make sure to buy ranks of powers sufficient for effect you want within PL limits and buy any necessary Alternate power effects. 8) Choose Complications and Drawbacks for concept. 9) Calculate total points. This is roughly the same as Page 14 of 2E? Do you need more detail? You might look around for the Mutagen Software program (its buggy but its useable to calculate stuff) Honestly I don't use M&M2E (or 1E much ) because I find it too complex too. So tell me your concept and pick an edition and I'll see if I can help you through the process here...
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Post by Trakx on Mar 22, 2006 15:28:35 GMT -5
I know how I seem. *sigh* I'm the one who wants a rules laden game, with clearly defined "yes" and "no"s on what you can do and even what the Narrator/Gamemaster can do. In SOME ways, yes, this is true about me. Because by these same rules, it is fun to see how far you can push the limits. How well designed can you make your character?
This is almost absent in MSHAG. HOWEVER, MSHAG has one of the greatest features of any role playing game I have yet to see: your character doesn't begin as some street bumb who makes his way up to Superman status; you BEGIN at any power-level you want! (within the confines of the comic/campaign) For a medieval/fantasy game, I don't believe this would work. It would work better than how some established games out there do it, but it is suited perfectly to a comic book role playing game.
The problem with a game being too loose is that you may find players who try to do things that you, as a Narrator, do not wish to allow or don't see the power doing yourself. Now you have nothing to turn to as a safeguard ("The book says..."), and you have to stand up and explain yourself, where it clearly is a matter of differences of opinion.
From what I seen of Mutants & Masterminds, I thought it was decent. I respected it for sharing the D20 system, a system that while I don't love, I use - and what is so great about it is that it is designed with the open gaming license for ANY game maker to use to build their game around. So, I could jump up and with only a very slight learning curve, pick up and play it out of the box (so to say). What I loved the most about the game was the art and the characters - great design and backgrounds.
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Post by Tommy Brownell on Mar 22, 2006 16:02:44 GMT -5
Well, M&M does allow that...(started off a Superman if that's what the players/GM wants)...
But the "not building themselves up"...that's one thing I loved about Classic Marvel...characters in comics tend to be REALLY static for long periods of time (stat-wise), with radical alterations from time to time. Classic Marvel's massively expensive Karma system modeled that very well.
Saga TRIED to in Reed Richard's Guide to Everything...but their explanation was bad and would be ignored by most people (spending response points for new costumes/codenames).
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Post by silverlion on Mar 22, 2006 17:32:51 GMT -5
I know how I seem. *sigh* I'm the one who wants a rules laden game, with clearly defined "yes" and "no"s on what you can do and even what the Narrator/Gamemaster can do. In SOME ways, yes, this is true about me. Because by these same rules, it is fun to see how far you can push the limits. How well designed can you make your character? I didn't say it was bad, its just not my thing. I'm a GM most of the time as the GM I've decided the best ways for things to work to make things exciting since far too often I've found rigid rules with YES and NO absolutes hampering my and my player's funs--there is NOTHING wrong with wanting it that way at all though. Nothing. Just isn't MY style. I disagree here, I think Dragonlance Saga did a good job of it, and I think my own fantasy RPG (Dark ageish) will do a good job of allowing any power level when I'm done. From beginning heroes with lots of promies and courage, to skilled heroes a bit worn down by the world. Aye, and if my players don't trust me to make it fun, why are they playing with me? I mean really? Again I'm not saying your wrong, but my preference is for the opposite. I'm pretty proud of how often my players have fun too. It screws up every now and then. (I hit a players button recently, in a Fantasy game. I was using M&M, and hit something I didn't expect at all, the player's claustrophobia, and he couldn't seperate out his character from himself in respect for that fear, but that still damaged the game. No matter how good the rules, how yes or no they couldn't fix it no matter how well written or rigid--they simply couldn't cover this situation. But one bad event or two or ten in the decades I've been gaming is relatively minor all told.
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