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Post by Trakx on Mar 31, 2006 9:53:29 GMT -5
Yesterday I went through the powers list and looked for other powers that I thought could be included as a stunt (or in some cases, a limit) to other powers. I might go into detail per power, but as I'm typing these up at work, I'm more focused in just giving the summarized version.  Note: The old power is on the left, and what I think it should be included within is located on the right. Also note that some of these powers are not official powers, such as Nemesis, but have generally been accepted amount the fans of the game.Claws -> Body Weapons Computer Link -> Machine Control Danger Sense -> Enhanced Senses Detection -> Enhanced Senses Digging -> Earth Control Earthquake -> Earth Control Energy Duplicate -> Duplication Horns -> Body Weapons Hyper-Invention -> Skill: Gadgetry Hyperlinguistics -> Skill: Linguistics Invulnerability -> Resistance, Stunt: Minimum intensity of 10 to take. Nemesis -> Power Duplication (offensive), Resistance (defensive) Poison -> Affliction Prehensile Hair -> Additional Limbs Protected Senses -> Enhanced Senses Psi-Screen -> Resistance Psychic Blast -> Energy Blast, with the unique trait that it uses Willpower for the opposition. Quills -> Body Weapons Radar Sense -> Enhanced Senses Space Flight -> Flight Teeth -> Body Weapons Weapon Creation -> Object Duplication Webslinging -> Ensnarement Wings -> Flight (as a limit) What more could anyone else come up with that could be included within other powers instead of a power of its own? I realize some of the powers that I've condensed above would need a little bit of tweaking to work as a stunt of another power. Some of these, like Digging, if that were the only power that you had of Earth Control, you could take it as Stunt Only. Finally, while I believe Radar Sense and Danger Sense could be condensed down, these are two that I don't feel right about condensing due to how iconic they are. I don't know. |
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Post by Tommy Brownell on Mar 31, 2006 14:38:16 GMT -5
The first thing to do then is either ditch, or rework, the rule that you can't gain stunts off of a stunt.
I am sure that some of those powers have stunts that don't fall under the parent power, and by the current rules, taking them as a stunt keeps you from gaining the other stunts.
Hyperlinguistics really shouldn't fall under the skill bit, though...it is a power. A pretty low-level one...but it is one.
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Post by Trakx on Mar 31, 2006 15:42:38 GMT -5
The rule about not gaining stunts off a stunt helps to keep character sheets understandable. Otherwise we would have to sit down and figure out each one. If you could think of a way to have it read coherantly, though, I would love to read it!
Hyperlinguistics reads, "Your hero may rapidly learn any language from sufficient exposure through reading, listening or contact. Once the hero masters a language, he or she is fluent in it. This only works on true languages; Earth animals, with the possible exception of whales and dolphins, do not have such languages. The difficulty of new languages appears on the chart below (lowered by one level if the hero has the Linguistics skill):
Source Difficulty
Current human language Easy
Archaic human language Average
Alien humanoid language Challenging
Intelligent animal language Daunting
Non-human alien language Desperate"
The Linguistics skill, as written, is as follows, "The science of words. Your hero can understand at least the basics of any terrestrial language, and may reduce the difficulty rating to comprehend even alien languages."
While Hyperlinguistics is a little bit more wordy, they both function the same way.
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Post by Trakx on Mar 31, 2006 15:54:21 GMT -5
I added some powers to the list: Hyper-Invention and Prehensile Hair.
I also organized the list alphabetically by original power to be condensed.
Hyper-Invention I said to default into a skill called Gadgetry. There is no such skill at this time, but the skill would work similiar to Contingent Attack. Hyper-Invention, as written, reads: "You can rapidly learn how any piece of technology works or how to duplicate a specific effect by constructing a piece of technology. This power can be used in place of Intellect when building equipment."
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Post by Trakx on Mar 31, 2006 15:56:15 GMT -5
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Post by silverlion on Mar 31, 2006 17:33:31 GMT -5
Some powers just have issues with condensation because of their focus in Marvel U, if this were "generic superhero RPG" then that might be different. In other cases there are powers that are distint enough to be seperate even if they DO have similarities.
For example I think Psychic Blast should remain its own power. It has several unique stunts (psychic weapons for example), and a different trump suit. These are purely RULES reasons, but it is also Marvel loves its psi's, and they seem to get options. Other issues logically with simple visiualization boils down to a psychich blast is always psychic--no ifs ands or buts, thus its not just "Energy Blast-Fire" because game wise it DOES do something different, and ties to other power while Fire, Lightning, Lasers, all have common real world physical manifestations.
Computer Link--Machine Control. Only of Computer link is the base power and Machine Control is a stunt or advantage. Because LINKING to the machine seems conspiciously the first step (however there are machine control users who just animate stuff purely by physical means, that skip this step too..)
Earthquake/Earth Control, again similar but functionally doing different things. The difference between setting up vibrations and hauling up chings of earth or creating walls of dirt, or stone golems, just "maybe related but not same power"
Remember LOOK carefully at the powers which are already related at the top in the book, these are things that MAY be good things NOT to condense.
Hyperinvention/Linguistics are not powers in the core book. I'm only speaking of core powers myself.
I don't want to mess with other peoples House rule powers. Not at this step.
Space Flight-Flight, good, Wings, Flight good, all the Body Weapons are good condensers.
Stick with the CORE rule book. Once we've done that we can then come (alas I can't all I have is the core rules anymore)--but then we can come the Rosters for others.
This is to build the base frame work.
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Post by Tommy Brownell on Apr 1, 2006 1:01:54 GMT -5
Hyperlinguistics is a core power, actually.
I agree with Tim, though...overhaul, but keep <Marvel in mind in the overhaul. I want a better Marvel RPG, not a better generic RPG.
If I wanna run my own 'verse, I'll just use M&M 2e...=)
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Post by Tommy Brownell on Apr 1, 2006 1:07:30 GMT -5
OH...as far as the stunts issue goes...I'd rather a complicated character sheet than an artificial limitation...=P
Since stunts are already listed as kind of a subheading under each power, just listing the additional stunts as s sub heading under their parent stunt would be simple enough.
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Post by Trakx on Jan 3, 2007 0:04:30 GMT -5
Its funny how your perspective on things can change in just a few months. Well, in this case, about nine months.
My stance on condensing a lot of these powers have changed, and I agree that the emphasis should stay on Marvel first before, if ever, adding other publishers into the mix.
All that said, I still feel the same about these powers being condensed:
Prehensile Hair --> Additional Limbs
Invulnerability --> Resistance with the prereq. that it can only be taken at a minimum intensity of 10.
No one takes Prehensile Hair as a power for their character. They just don't. But if anyone ever DID, I don't see why they couldn't build it off of Additional Limbs (turning hair into a "limb" in use).
The problem with converting Invulnerability is that each thing that you're invulnerable to is a new power, each costing 10 points. Whereas with Resistance you can just take a new resistance as a stunt. This problem is minor since if we're to make a 2nd edition, all it would require is a bit of rewording on our part.
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syzygy
Supporting Cast
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Post by syzygy on May 27, 2007 22:00:51 GMT -5
Yesterday I went through the powers list and looked for other powers that I thought could be included as a stunt (or in some cases, a limit) to other powers. I don't see why you would even bother. Character creation allows players to choose their powers. If they don't want Wings or Imitation or Alchemy, they are free to choose Flight or Shapeshifting or Transmutation. Having separate listings enabled the designers to list the known Marvel Comics characters in a more specific way than condensed powers otherwise might. If necessary, the referee can designate some powers as candidates for "handicapping", such that if a player chooses them, he gets extra points. For example, if a player chooses "Resistance to Fatigue: +5", he should probably get an extra card added to that, since the five points could simply have been spent on pure Strength. Similarly, if the referee rules that (in his campaign) powers like Wings or Alchemy is a handicapped version of Flight and Transmutation, a few extra free points can be added to the power rank. Another way of handling this is to give the player a few free power stunts. So if Wings is ruled to be a limited version of Flight, the player that really wants a winged character might be given one to three free, established power stunts. Both forms of handicapping are options left to the discretion of the referee, presumably working with the player. If rewriting the rule book, I'd suggest handicapping as an optional rule, but wouldn't make it mandatory in any way. So I wouldn't condense powers at all. The multiple, separate listings really serve the roster books of Marvel's established characters quite well. The powers are listed specifically in order to describe Marvel characters: Archangel has wings, so there's "Wings"; Wolverine has claws, so there's "Claws"; Medusa has prehensile hair, so there's "Prehensile Hair". It works for me. Why try to turn Marvel SAGA into CHAMPIONS by making categories as broad as possible? Just play CHAMPIONS instead.... |
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syzygy
Supporting Cast
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Post by syzygy on May 28, 2007 15:49:48 GMT -5
Hyperlinguistics reads, "Your hero may rapidly learn any language from sufficient exposure through reading, listening or contact. Once the hero masters a language, he or she is fluent in it. This only works on true languages; Earth animals, with the possible exception of whales and dolphins, do not have such languages. The difficulty of new languages appears on the chart below (lowered by one level if the hero has the Linguistics skill): Source Difficulty Current human language Easy Archaic human language Average Alien humanoid language Challenging Intelligent animal language Daunting Non-human alien language Desperate" The Linguistics skill, as written, is as follows, "The science of words. Your hero can understand at least the basics of any terrestrial language, and may reduce the difficulty rating to comprehend even alien languages." While Hyperlinguistics is a little bit more wordy, they both function the same way. They are not the same; condensing Linguistics skill and Hyperlinguistics power would be a huge mistake. Someone with Hyperlinguistics can learn languages in seconds, become as fluent as a native speaker within minutes. They can learn new languages and dead languages without a "Rosetta Stone" to translate from. With Hyperlinguistics, there's no need to be exposed to each word and grammar form individually, as a human linguist requires. The Hyperlinguist hears just a fraction of the language, and he's got it all, or very nearly. For example, Earth's best linguists and Egyptologists continually failed to translate heirogylphics. This persisted until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, which had the same text in both Greek and Heirogylphic. By using the Greek as a key, they were able to translate the heiroglyphics for the first time. Doug Ramsey, however, could have translated the heiroglyphics without access to any other text. Hyperlinguistics allows for such potentially useful stunts as body language reading (detect emotion, detect lies), cracking codes of all sorts (without any kind of a "key" or having to run through all possible permutations), mathematical savant, and even potentially decoding DNA, the "language of nature" (Cypher once did this to Magus). Cypher's Hyperlinguistics blows away the Linguistics skill utterly. Even if you gave Mr. Fantastic and Dr. Doom the Linguistics skill, they still couldn't keep up with Doug Ramsey's abilities in this area. |
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Post by Trakx on May 29, 2007 12:08:52 GMT -5
Very convincing argument. Thanks for the input!  Now, do you feel languages should be grouped into one skill or one by one? In other words, should the skill grant you the ability to speak Spanish only, or an equal amount of skill for understanding any and all languages? |
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Post by silverlion on May 29, 2007 12:44:37 GMT -5
I think Languages are tricky in most games, personally I'd say its not a big enough issue to make someone with the talent speak numerous languages. (and give any PC who wants them at least two without the talent)--that covers the number of bilingual people and allows the talent for truly extraordinary people who know dozens of languages.
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syzygy
Supporting Cast
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Post by syzygy on May 29, 2007 18:46:13 GMT -5
Very convincing argument. Thanks for the input! Now, do you feel languages should be grouped into one skill or one by one? In other words, should the skill grant you the ability to speak Spanish only, or an equal amount of skill for understanding any and all languages? In a game like Marvel SAGA, things aren't always equal, unlike in say CHAMPIONS. (Not to knock CHAMPIONS, which I refereed for years). So I wouldn't complicate things by grouping separate languages. Basically I would: 1) Keep Linguistic skill as a single listing, but claim that different characters get varying milage from their Linguistics talent based upon background, age, profession, Intellect, and generally how they play their character. 2) Simply allow anyone from a foreign background to know both their native tongue and English. Not exactly fair to native English speakers, but Marvel SAGA isn't about the points. So possibly, some characters might be credited with bilingual ability for free at the start. In fact, if any character's backstory makes a convincing case for bilingual ability, I'd probably go with it for free. It hardly unbalances the game, after all.... As to how much milage each character gets from Linguistics: * Partly, it depends upon the character conception. So it may not be fair to say that Illyana Rasputin with Linguistics knows only Russian, English, and "Demonese", but this is consistent with her background. If the player running Illyana (with Linguistics) wants her to know other languages, she can have the character study with NPCs to acquire that language. In that case, I'd allow her to pick up a new language for free (she's already got Linguistics anyway), so long as she role-played, say, learning German from Nightcrawler, or learning French from Karma, etc. * On the other hand, if we say that any particularly scholarly character has Linguistics, like Hank McCoy or David Allyne, I'd probably give them credit for a dozen of the most common Earth languages, and a few uncommon ones. Again, consistent with their personality and behavior. * Older characters with Linguistics, like Mystique and Wolverine, can be assumed to have a wider repertoire of lannguages than say, younger characters like Shadowcat and Cannonball (assuming they had Linguistics). * Another factor is character profession. For an espionage-related character, or an explorer-type adventurer, Linguistics would probably include a great many languages. * Got Photographic Memory and Linguistics? Get credit for fluency in several dozen languages.... * Next, you've got Intellect rank. It's not unreasonable to assume someone like the Leader, the Mad Thinker, or Sage with Linguistics gets a hundred or more languages. Reed Richards with Linguistics could probably pick up fluency in a new language in a day, just by reading a common college textbook. * As for Doug Ramsey, with both Hyperlinguistics and Linguistics, his challenge isn't Terran languages; he's way beyond that. His challenge is to develop his power into useful stunts like "Read Body Language: Detect Lies" and other maneuvers. Not very precise, I know, but for something like languages, I'm willing to just feel my way through based upon my understanding of who each character is, and what can be expected of them based upon their background and abilties. |
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Post by Trakx on May 29, 2007 19:08:41 GMT -5
Wow - very thorough breakdown!
One could also use Linguistics as a skill for the Hyperlinguistics power, in the way that Observation is for sensory powers, or Mental Control is for willpower suit powers.
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